108 vs 110 lobe separation 108 vs 110 lobe separation

you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. Thanks. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? You cannot look at just the LCA without looking at other specs too. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. These favorable mechanical features depict the powerful acceleration capacity of the engine with higher oil and energy consumption rate, overheating problems, and other mechanical problems. 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. Your best bet would be to talk to one of the experts at a cam company to get a custom grind if you're that into the specs. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. whats the difference in how the car will run. When you don't have any overlap, you can't have any wave tuning. The standard bore block was then stuffed with a 4340 forged steel 4.0-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods, along with a set of flat-top, forged JE pistons. I forgot to add that poor vacuum is not much of a concern to me because I have no power accessories. Unfortunately, good street manners are often at odds with performance, as wilder cam timing usually decreases idle and (low-speed) driveability. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! A wider lobe center will give you more overall torque (comes in earlier and stays later). by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. This table will create a map in your head, and I bet it will make your understanding crystal clear. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. The balance of midrange torque and top-end horsepower lends this LSA range to the majority of street/strip engines. The first cam featured a wide 120-degree LSA, while cam number two narrowed the angle to 112 degrees. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. thanks. You can research your heads to find out where yours are, but honestly I don't think it will be worth the effort on a tow vehicle. Not a HUGE, but a significant difference between 110 and 112, but those are the trends. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. dur. He also enjoys reading books a lot and his favorite author is Paula Coelho. 1-3 Cognitive impairment is common in both FLE and TLE and adversely impacts quality of life and psychosocial functioning. 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. Higher overlapping lets less oil fall through the oil inlet. by mrsmythe Mon May 12, 2003 11:15 am, Post A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. So, now you, Read More Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main CulpritContinue, While changing the oil on your boats lower unit, you may need to change the drain plug, too. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". 238/248 duration, 300/310 adv. I know a little about cams. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. The same is true for intake valve closing. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. Required fields are marked *. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:38 pm, Post So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! But, the internal processings are much more complicated. As a result, a wider valve opening system with no overlapping allows more oil to fall through the oil inlet. such as 290 @.050? The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? But i would nt go any wider than 110. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. With a 108 degree lobe center, a cam will have a rougher idle and produce less vacuum due to more overlap. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. 110 LSA: You will find the complete opposite scenario here. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. "When the low-pressure wave in the exhaust reflects into the intake, the pressure delta actually helps pull air and fuel into the cylinder. If the exhaust valve closes too early it will trap some of the spent gases in the combustion chamber, and if it closes too late it will over-scavenge the chamber and take out too much of the charge, again creating an artificially lean condition. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. Aluminum flywheel & pullies. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. JavaScript is disabled. Only once the intake valve has closed can compression begin to build. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. I had an XE 274 in it. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Equipped with the 120-degree (LSA) cam, the hybrid stroker produced 570 hp at 6,200 rpm and 535 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . So, sit tight back and explore. 12 In terms of power production, the stroker LS3 performed best with the tightest lobe separation angle. Looking at 108vs. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. If the intake valve opens too early, it will push the new charge into the intake manifold. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. Lobe Separation or Lobe Centers is another way of expressing the Valve Overlap, which was the term formerly used by cam manufacturers before industry standard verbiage changed. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. somthing to that aspect. 04 Minor modifications to the factory windage tray were necessary to work with the new stroker assembly. - Sheryl Crow. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. On a naturally aspirated engine, the lobe separation angle has an effect on whether the engine reaches peak torque a little earlier or later in the rpm range. 106 LSA: So, if I talk about the powerband at 106 LSA, the powerband is narrow. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. by Mr. P. Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:36 pm, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited, General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. The tightest LSA (101) was worth 21.5 lb-ft of torque and a much broader powerbandat the cost of much lower idle vacuum, which would make it more temperamental in a street car. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. 07 Though the CNC-ported heads offered plenty of flow, it was necessary to upgrade the supplied valvesprings. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. Introduction. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. Enter lobe separation angle. A mobile functional near-infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS) was used to record cerebral oxygenation signals in the left prefrontal cortex (LPFC), right prefrontal cortex (RPFC), left parietal lobe (LPL), and right parietal lobe (RPL) and analyze the EC of the cerebral cortex. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 So, without wasting any moment, lets find out the answer. by Paul H Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 pm, Post The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. 108* or narrower lobe separation angle (LSA) is "Narrow" and 114* or wider (up to 117* or 120* for stock cams) is "Wide" , with 110 to 112* being the "normal" hot-rod cam. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Save Share. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? Post Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. 4 Impaired episodic memory and semantic knowledge are common in TLE, although dysexecutive traits . Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. Bad idea in my view. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. But that doesnt mean high-strung racing engines cant see gains, as well. Retarding the camshaft (a higher intake lobe centerline number 108 vs. 104) will generally start the power band later in the RPM range and decrease the cylinder pressure. We use 86b webcams with 1.25 rockers frequently in stroker motors.It's a nice way of getting close to .500" for hot street motors with average heads. Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. Ultimately, it comes down to how you want the engine to run, the car's intended purpose, and what you are willing to tolerate. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. Epilepsy is a chronic noncommunicable brain (neurological) disorder associated with excessive neuronal activity and unprovoked seizures referred to as 'epileptic seizures' and sensory-motor deficits that cause neurobiological, cognitive, psychological, and social consequences to the patient. It is the DESIGNED events that yield CENTERLINE. In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. This overlapping has a direct influence on the oil consumption rate of the engine. We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. The lower the lobe seperation,, ie. The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. We'll send you raw engine tech articles, news, features, and videos every week from EngineLabs. But you always have a cam card with the engine. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. So, this LSA is suitable for your engine and its components. A cam with a 112 lobe center will pull approximately 16-20" of vacuum, which is good for power brakes. After the next three pulls, it was clear the 113 cam was way down on low-end torque. Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. I'm surprized at these questions as well as some of the replies. " music to your ears? That was all, and we have already reached the concluding point. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. Mike Magda is a veteran automotive writer with credits in publications such as Racecar Engineering, Hot Rod, Engine Technology International, Motor Trend, Automobile, Automotive Testing Technology and Professional Motorsport World. Increasing the EGR effect has a good side in that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. Another difference between the two involves the power curve. [img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h291/downsideup09/DSCF2616-1.jpg[/img], [img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5928_111214857139_110806152139_2127222_6826389_n.jpg[/img]. Your email address will not be published. If you look at any given cam catalog, you will find that the majority of street-oriented cams fall in this range. Around 70 percent of muscle-car performance cams fall into this range. (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)cam CRANES 110921 has the intake close at 45 degrees ABDC while the wider lsa CRANES 114681 closes the valves at 50.0 ABDC . Call for details with your specific combination. by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. However, it is fixable. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. 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The exhaust has an opening even and a closing event. Cam swaps are all the rage and for good reason. I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. To reiterate another point, I realize that wider LSAs tend to broaden the power band, but for a car I would like to bracket race a bit, as well as enjoy on the street, I was told that a narrower LSA will help the car accelerate at a faster rate. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. Making this the biggest obstacle to overcome when selecting a cam profile with one of our tech advisors, explaining the definition and importance of the Lobe Center. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post If you look at the cam card, you will find a maximum lift column on the card.Now, all you have to do is, add up the two mentioned maximum angles and divide the summation by 2. As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. JavaScript is disabled. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. When boost or nitrous are introduced, and engine builders contemplate choices between single-, dual- or reverse-pattern camshafts then the discussion gets muchmore technical. A narrower LCA will increase valve overlap and close the (intake) valve earlier, which explains the typical rougher idler and more midrange behaviour. To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. You must log in or register to reply here. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. It really comes down to the application. Coupled that with the low first gear of the five speed, it ought to create some real traction problems. According to the Motortrend, LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) is a wonderful approximation of the operation of the engine because it takes into account the relative time of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) and the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) concerning each other.Above mentioned sequential activities allow LSA to be an accurate representation of the operation of the engine. 110 for sure. Do you know what the best lobe separation angle for your car engine is? VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. Topping the short-block was a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. I have 108 for LSA and my headlights take awhile to go up when the car is idling. The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue.